Chat log of Bridge Base Online session for OliverC starting at: Sat Jan 12 19:14:01 2008
OliverC: Ok, I think we'll make a start
OliverC: Hi Everyone and welcome to today's Precision Club session, in which we'll start to look in ernest at the Precision Club. Today and for the next couple of weeks we'll be taking a ...
OliverC: look at the Precision 1!H & 1!S Openings & Responses.
OliverC: If you have not already done so, please have a look at the notes I have prepared on Precision Club bidding. You can find these on:
OliverC: http://bbo.pigpen.org.uk You might want to have these onscreen in the background for reference during the session.
OliverC: In particular the 1!H and 1!S Notes can be found at http://bbo.pigpen.org.uk/1h.php and http://bbo.pigpen.org.uk/1s.php
OliverC: If you are watching the play and have questions, please put these to me !H!HPUBLICLY!H!H and I will work these into the hand-discussion afterwards. If you're playing, I will answer ...
OliverC: them immediately, of course!
OliverC: Please do !CNOT!C ask !SPRIVATE!S questions. If you do I have to repeat the question as well as giving the answer, and I have enough typing to do during a session as it is <grin>
OliverC: If you are unsure as to what to bid (or play), please try to figure it out yourself, but ask me if you get completely lost. If you go way off-base I'll sort it out without being ...
OliverC: asked.
OliverC: Please keep miscellaneous public chat to a minimum during the session as it does make it difficult for people to see the wood for the trees sometimes.
bwd1: Oliver I click on them and get nothing :(
JohnJP (Lobby): you've barred me!! :)
->JohnJP: No. I've never barred anyone in my life
->JohnJP: I can't bar you from BIL
->bwd1: Bernie, the site is definitely up. I'm looking at it at the moment
bwd1: found it at bottom of page :)
->bwd1: lol
bwd1: hehe
->bwd1: Use IE6 or IE7 and it'll display properly
OliverC: Okay, so today we're going to start looking at the 1!H and 1!S Openings. In general, the sequences for each are very similar, so I'm going to treat them as one and will mention ...
OliverC: when there is any significant difference. We will NOT finish 1!H and 1!S tonight.
OliverC: The ideas I'm going to introduce may not all be new to you, but some probably will be. As well as the Forcing No Trump and Splinters, over the next few weeks we'll be looking at ...
OliverC: Mini-Splinters, Fit-showing Jump-Shifts, Romex Trial Bids and Transfer responses after they double our 1!H or 1!S Opening.
OliverC: These all fit very well with precision, but you can use some of them (the last 4, for example) with ANY system
OliverC: 1!H and 1!S Openings both show 11-15 points and at least a 5-card suit in the suit you bid. If you open 1!H then, if you have a spade suit as well, it is definitely SHORTER. with ...
OliverC: 5-5 in the Majors, always open 1!S rather than 1!H and, as we'll see later in the Course, we prefer to open 2NT with 5-5 in the Majors (but for the time being we'll use 1!S).
OliverC: In Precision, Opening 1!D, 1NT or 2!C always DENIES having a 5-card Major
dee_dee_20: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
dee_dee_20: sorry separating the chat log 
OliverC: So the South hand here, for example, would NOT be opened 1!D under any circumstances. In practice it is strong enough that you'd always open it 1!C, but if not, then 1!H rather ...
OliverC: than 1!D
OliverC: Because the Opening is limited to 15 points maximum, this takes a considerable amount of pressure OFF responder. In ACOL, Standard American or 2/1, the Opening could show a hand as ...
OliverC: strong as 20 points, so responder is forced to manufacture a reply with 6 or more points.
OliverC: In Precision, it is much easier to tell when you're definitely in part-score territory, and partner can happily pass the opening out if they've nothing constructive to say. eg: ...
OliverC: !Sxx, !HQJxx, !DJxxx, !CKxx. If partner Opens 1!S and you hold this hand, you know immediately that the partnership is limited to 22 points at most and can happily pass.
OliverC: So a hand that might normally bid a minimum natural 1NT response just to keep the bidding open, might well pass in a Precision partnership
OliverC: Any questions thus far?
dae: n
OliverC: Just to reiterate, 1!H and 1!S both show a hand with  11-15 points and a 5-card Major in the suit bid
OliverC: ALL the other Intermediate Openings DENY having a 5-card Major
dae: never adjust for length points?
OliverC: As I said last week, we tend to deal with playing strength more than just adding points for extra-length suits
OliverC: The South hand here has ENORMOUS playing strength so we would upgrade it from 1!H to a 16+ 1!C Opening
OliverC: The reason is mainly tactical, though, because it allows South to control the auction much more
OliverC: Take the west hand here, though
OliverC: This also has playing strength far over the apparent 10 points, so we would have no qualms in opening it 1!S
OliverC: But we're looking at the playing strength. Give West the AK!D and 6 small Spades and much of that playing strength vanishes
OliverC: See the difference I'm getting at?
dae: y
TapTap: y
bhtf (Lobby): bonsoir Oliver have fun
OliverC: So in many instances you effectively are adding points for PLAYING STRENGTH rather than simply for long suits
->bhtf: Hi Alain
OliverC: ok, let's start looking at initial responses
OliverC: .
OliverC: .
OliverC: .
OliverC: .
OliverC: In Precision Direct suit raises (eg: 1!S-2!S, 1!H-3!H, or 1!S-4!S) are mainly pre-emptive in nature and based on trump support and ruffing values rather than a sound point count as ...
OliverC: in Limit Raises in other systems.
co pilot:  we losts coult,for this hand
gimit: tks- sorry to be a pain
OliverC: Again, the effect is often similar to adding points for shortages, but we tend to deal with the overall playing strength as a responding hand and the direct-suit raises are ...
OliverC: normally fairly aggressive rather than being based on a sound limit raise
OliverC: The North hand here, for example, would not normally raise a 1!H Opening to 2!H, despite the 4-card Heart support, but would proceed via the Forcing No Trump (which we'll come to a ...
OliverC: little later tonight) and then support Hearts at the minimum level over Opener's rebid, which would show a sound 2-level limit raise
OliverC: Thus !SQxxx, !HJxxx, !Dx, !CQxxx would qualify for a raise to the 2-level if partner opened either Major Suit.
OliverC: !SQJxx, !Hx, !DAxx, !CJxxxx would qualify for a raise to the 3-level if partner opened 1!S, and
OliverC: !Sx, !H109xxx, !DAKQxx, !CJx would qualify for a jump to Game if partner opened 1!H
onoway: i came in late  and it was while he was typing  so saw no bids and no chat  for a few minutes  
onoway: sorry
OliverC: The thing about direct-suit raises is that they are not normally very "constructive" in that they do not tell partner a huge amount about your hand
OliverC: ...which is why we use them pre-emptively, and bid more constructively when we have a better hand
OliverC: A simple change of suit response (ie: 1!H-1!S) is forcing for one round, as in most systems. Similarly a new suit at the 3-level is also deemed forcing for one round. The sequence ...
OliverC: 1!H-1!S only guarantees a 4-card suit.
OliverC: A 2/1 in Precision is normally forcing to 2NT at least. Delayed-Game Raises normally denote a hand with trump support and a decent side-suit. Many pairs play that a DGR denies ...
OliverC: possession of a side-suit singleton in addition. (See splinters etc below)
OliverC: So simple change-of-suit responses are little different to those in any other system
OliverC: As with SA, 2/1 and Acol, a change-of-suit response from a PASSED HAND is NOT forcing
OliverC: So if you are a passed hand, and can make a limit bid of sorts, then perhaps better to make that immediately
OliverC: ...rather than making a change-of-suit response first
OliverC: We'll practice hands like these in a little while
OliverC: Any questions on direct suit raises or change-of-suit responses?
OliverC: You'll notice that I've not mentioned a 1NT, 2NT or 3NT response to 1 1!H or 1!S Opening as yet. That is entirely intentional
OliverC: The reason is because ALL of these responses are artificial in some way. I'll take the 3NT response first:
OliverC: The 3NT response to 1!H or 1!S shows a balanced raise to 4 of Opener's Major. It guarantees 4333 distribution and ALSO shows a severe lack of controls (probably 2 at most  -  ...
OliverC: Ace=2, King=1)
OliverC: If shows the kind of hand where, if Opener is also lacking in controls and is semi-balanced, it might be easier to make 9 tricks in NT rather than 10 in 4 of the Major
OliverC: The 2NT Response to 1!H or 1!S is also ENTIRELY artificial. It shows different kinds of hands depending on whether it is a 1!H and 1!S Opening and we'll come to those next week
OliverC: What we are going to look at in detail is the 1NT Response
OliverC: As in 2/1, the 1NT Response to a Major Suit Opening is artificial and can be used by a number of different hand types. With one exception these are most often balanced hands. If ...
OliverC: they have trump support then they are worth at least a solid raise to the 2-level, and if without trump support they will normally contain the values for a natural raise to 2NT.
OliverC: So the North hand here has a "solid" raise to 2!H
OliverC: (over 1!H)
OliverC: The other main hand-type that goes via this route is where responder has no tolerance for Opener's major, a weak hand, and a long suit of their own.
OliverC: eg: !Sx, !HJxx, !DKJ10xxxx, !CQx would qualify if partner opened 1!S. (we drop this alternative once we start using Asking Bids, by the way, because we use this sequence for strong ...
OliverC: hands with trump support)
OliverC: If responder bids 1NT over a Major suit opening, this is called a Forcing No Trump and, as the name suggests, it is forcing for 1 round. Opener rebids on the following lines:-
OliverC: (1) Shows a second suit if held (Reverse into Spades shows max values, and a jump-rebid in a second suit shows max and at least 5-5).
OliverC: (2) Rebids a 6-card or a very strong 5-card suit (Jump Rebid shows a maximum with a good 6-card suit).
OliverC: (3) Rebids 2NT with a set-up 6-card or longer suit (eg: AKQJxx)
OliverC: (4) With 5332-shape hands, rebids their cheapest 3-card minor at the 2-level.
OliverC: That is generally the order of preference, too
OliverC: By that I mean that we generally find it is bettwe to show a second 4-card suit (if held) RATHER than rebidding a 6-card suit
OliverC: This is because it is more constructive and tells partner more about your hand
OliverC: Well allow South to open this 1!H
OliverC: (And ignore the fact that West would probably come in with some mnumber of Spades in the real world)
OliverC: 1NT is still "Forcing" by a passed hand
OliverC: With help in BOTH of partner's long suits, and excellent trump support, North upgrades their hand from a minimum raise to a raise to game
OliverC: the 3!D bid is NOT Game-forcing (or even forcing)
OliverC: North can pass the 3!D bid if they feel it's the right place to play
OliverC: let'#s find another FNT hand
OliverC: it's a conspiracy
OliverC: ok, look at E?W here
OliverC: East will not count their stiff K!D as it may be completely valueless
ReginaldF: :-)
OliverC: Note that despite being 5-5, East doesn;t rebid 3!H as not maximum
OliverC: Now West has something of a problem as they are really too strong to sign off in 4!S (Once we start using Asking Bids you will see that this ceases to be a problem)
dae: assuming S trump
dae: ?
OliverC: Yes
frido777: what if responder wants !H trump ?
decima: 5!h =2 ace?
dae: how to know it isn't last suit  bid as trump?
OliverC: Actually East doesn't really know for certain which suit West is agreeing at this stage, but since their response would be identical whichever Major  West wants to play in it ...
OliverC: doesn't matter on this hand
Cliff228: What if it did
OliverC: This really does depend on your agreements as regards RKCB
OliverC: As long as you and partner are on the same wavelength, it doesn;t matter
j915: does west have any other forcing bids over 2h
OliverC: Having bid 1NT, no, not until we start using Asking Bids (at which point he can bid 3!C over 2!H to agree Spades, Ask about East's Spades and start an asking bid sequence
Cliff228: How do you alert the 4nt is in spades, not hearts?
j915: ok tks
r_pakker: the 1NT bid is confirming spades as trump?
OliverC: (or bid 3!D over 2!H to agree hearts, ask about Opener's hearts and start an asking bid sequence)
OliverC: No, The 1NT bid is not agreeing ANYTHING
Cliff228: Don't ops have a right to know what suit you are bidding with rkc?
OliverC: It simply asks partner to show more about their hand, and Responder's hand-type is clarified on THEIR rebid
ReginaldF: The problem is that Oliver has to make do with available hands not all ideal 
allenC: thought it  was artifical support bid
OliverC: I'm not here to tell you what agreements to play as regards RKCB. My system doesn't even USE RKCB (ever). (I have something MUCH better)
OliverC: Until you start using Asking Bids, however, you will have to make do with the meagre facilities RKCB offers
juneber: can W answer 2NT to 1S ti say ..I have an opening hand and s support?
OliverC: No. Precision doesn't use Jacoby 2NT
OliverC: (well not this version of Precision anyway)
juneber: tks
ReginaldF: Trumps can be agreed implicitelly
OliverC: Wait until I've shown you the rest of the system over the next couple of weeks and then you can decide whether it's for you
OliverC: let's move on
decima: ok
OliverC: So Responder uses FNT with one of the following:
OliverC: (1) hands worth at least a sound relatively balanced Limit raise to the 2-level in Opener's Major
OliverC: (2) hands worth a natural raise to 2NT or more
OliverC: (3) Weak Hands with no tolerance for Opener's major and a long suit of their own
OliverC: As I said earlier, once we start using Asking Bids we "lose" hand-type 3 above (except by a passed hand) and instead we add (3) 16+ hands with trump support
OliverC: That will have to wait a few months, though
j915: is there any point count for the FNT
OliverC: No
OliverC: Just a promise that responder can handle the subsequent auction
j915: tks
OliverC: So look at the South hand here
trafalgar2: can you show whether 3 or 4 card trump support?
OliverC: If North opened 1!S then South might bid 1NT, intending to rebid Diamonds at the cheapest possible level to show a weak hand with long Diamonds and no tolerance for Opener's Major
OliverC: We don't have specific bids for each (as Bergen), as we are more interested in showing other features about the hand
trafalgar2: ty
OliverC: Ok, 
OliverC: continuing the recap
OliverC: Over 1NT, Opener rebids a second 4-card or longer suit if held, or rebids a 6-card or longer suit, (rarely can bid 2NT to show a set-up 6-card suit in a maximum hand), or with ANY ...
OliverC: 5332-shape hand, rebids their cheapest 3-card Minor
j915: 4-5-2-2?
OliverC: Over Opener's rebid, Responder passes, gives preference, shows a limit raise in Opener's Major, bids NT's at an appropriate level, OR bids their long weak suit at the minimum ...
OliverC: possible level
OliverC: 4522 can be a problem if you are lower-range
OliverC: if 4531 or 4513 and lower-range, rebid the 3-card Minor, with 4522 you could rebid a 2-card Minor or simply rebid the Hearts
OliverC: With upper-range, reverse into the Spades
OliverC: ok?
j915: tks
OliverC: You will find, though, that 1NT pretty much denies having 4-card Spades, since Opener will rebid along the lines shown above when Responder bids 1!S over 1!H
OliverC: so 1!H-1!S-2!C might only be a 3-card suit with 2533 shape, for example
OliverC: but alternatively, over 1!H and 1!S, Opener can rebid 1NT with that shape
OliverC: ie 1!H-1!S-1NT would tend to be 2533 or perhaps 1534 or 1543
OliverC: but I would rather bid my 4-card Minor with the latter two
OliverC: So after 1M-1NT-2x, bids in Opener's Major or NT's tend to be limit bids
JohnnyHiLo: is responder guaranteeing 5s for a 1h-1s sequence?
OliverC: no, 4-card only
OliverC: Back to the hand shown here. In practice, If not playing Asking Bids, West might not use FNT here
dae: asking bid ask WHAT?
OliverC: instead, the bidding would probably go something like this
OliverC: Asking Bids potentially ask a lot of different things
OliverC: I'll show you the asking Bid sequence for this hand in a minute
dae: ok-ty
OliverC: Since 2!C is forcing to 2NT, West can agree Spades at the 2-level
Cliff228: Is the 2 !c bid alertable?
OliverC: 2!C is a wholly natural bid showing a Club suit
OliverC: no more alertable than it would be in Standard American
Cliff228: Not forcing to 2nt?
OliverC: Do you alert 2/1's when playing SAYC?
Cliff228: I just thought you said it is forcing to 2nt, misunderstood
OliverC: If not, then you wouldn't have to here, since pretty much the whole world plays 2/1 by an unpassed hand as being forcing to 2NT at least
dae: see it in gray       click on it it tells you
OliverC: West would probably not look beyond 6!S here
OliverC: Since East has a maximum of 13 or a poor 14 points here (or they might have rebid 3!H over 2!C)
OliverC: given that they are 5-5
JohnnyHiLo: where was the spade ace indicated?
j915: good sequence
OliverC: it wasn't :)
JohnnyHiLo: oh
OliverC: If East is 5-5 their points must be somewhere (hence 6!S not RKCB and then 7!S), but they are limited, so it is unlikely that they have AK!S and KQ!C AND the K!C
OliverC: and KQ!H, I mean
OliverC: AK!S, KQ!H AND K!C
OliverC: That would give then a maximum 15-count and with 5-5 they'd likely rebid 3!H over 2!C
hallway (Lobby): Hi:)  
gimit: Ok, E's 4 diam indicates?????? either A or K/
OliverC: On the other hand they ARE likely to have MOST of those cards, because East has continued cue-bidding
OliverC: Might be a singleton Diamond
OliverC: (or a void)
OliverC: but 1st or 2nd round control
gimit: Or A?
gimit: Ok tks
OliverC: Ok, just quickly let's show you the Asking Bid sequence here
gimit: but I don't know that when I decl
OliverC: 4!C agrees Spades as trumps, notionally shows 16+ and asks about East's Spades
OliverC: 4NT is an Asking Bid called Beta, not because it is 4NT but because it is a relay over the response to the first Asking Bid in this sequence
decima: can E shows that he has  singleton in !d
flamma: So beta is used because of the !S agreement?
JohnnyHiLo: wouldnt east have 6 controls? 
dae: what   would     4 d ask      H?   instead of  4 c?
trafalgar2: has E 6 controls?
OliverC: In these sequences it doesn;t really matter: Minimum new-suit bids over Opener's rebid are Asking in either Opener's 1st or 2nd suit, and a relay over the response (with ...
OliverC: exceptions) is asking about controls
OliverC: East not counting the singleton K!D
OliverC: since it isn;t a control unless he KNOWS West has Ax(x)
OliverC: and East knows very little about West's hand here
Whitaker1->Club: ok,,,I will take  one!
OliverC: It is possible that E/W might miss 7!S here if East had AKxxx, KQxxx, x, Kx
OliverC: but on this sequence it's difficult for West to find out whether East has the Q!H (insufficient space)
OliverC: Anyway, that was just to give you a flavour
OliverC: Let's wrap the talking up and let you practice a bit
OliverC: The jump-rebids should only be used with a maximum hand, bearing in mind that responder may have the long weak suit type of hand. Opener should normally choose to show a second ...
OliverC: suit in preference to rebidding a 6-card major unless the major is very strong and the second suit very weak.
OliverC: Over Opener's rebid, responder passes, gives preference, bids No Trumps or raises a suit of opener's as appropriate. With the long weak suit type of hand, responder bids their suit ...
OliverC: at the minimum level. eg: 1!H-1NT-2!C-2!D
OliverC: When we get to look at Asking Bids, we will see that we dispense with the long-weak suit type of hand in favour of using relays over Opener's rebid to initiate an Asking Bid ...
OliverC: sequence based on support for Opener's Major. eg: 1!H-1NT-2!C-2!D would be an Asking Bid about Hearts, but until you start using Asking Bids, the long-weak-suit type can be a ...
OliverC: useful escape route.
OliverC: Even when we've started using Asking Bids and have stopped using this kind of sequence to show weak hands with a long suit and no tolerance for Opener's Major, this route is STILL ...
OliverC: available when Responder is a passed hand (and therefore cannot be 16+ with trump support)
dreidle68: but 6s OR 7s  rather important. why isn't there space?
OliverC: Well West could ask about Hearts by bidding 6!H over 5!S, but the answer would commit them to 7!S regardless
dae: IF   opener was weak in S how would he answer      besides  4 S?
dee_dee_20: could you not show a 2 suiter by bidding 2!h rather then 3?
OliverC: Can I have 3 more volunteers who want to try their hand at some Precision Major Suit Openings
OliverC: 2 more please
OliverC: Thanks guys
dae: we can all get beaten up!
trafalgar2: bid and play or bid and claim?
OliverC: ok, think about what I've said tonight and see how you get on
OliverC: just bid here
OliverC: bid, lead and then claim
OliverC: ok, so South shows their 2nd suit
DRAJCM->Club: LIKE ?
OliverC: would do this even with 6-4 in the Majors
OliverC: North has a number of possible routes to take on this hand
OliverC: 3!S now is fine, although it TENDS to show a hand that is more balanced than this one
JohnnyHiLo: missed a slam
OliverC: ok, North might have bid 3!S immediately
OliverC: by a passed hand this would be almost exactly the kind of hand they actually have
ReginaldF: A!C K!S
OliverC: 1NT then the raise in pades might be slightly stronger (a poor 11, for example, that they'd decided not to open) but balanced with 4-card Spade support and a ruffing value ...
OliverC: somewhere
OliverC: either way, this sequence was fine
ReginaldF: is 4!H a bit pushy
dianas: just stopped to say hello... if you dont need me I will go baby-sitter. Btw, sent you the fdccs with motor corrected as in notes at the website
OliverC: Next week we'll see that North might also bid 2NT here to show an undefined Mini-splinter, but this normally shows 8-9 points rather than 10+
vinny3147: what is a point or 2 among friends
JohnnyHiLo: would u do more asking bids with this one? if not why not.
OliverC: so 1!S-2NT(mini-splinter)-3!C(Where?)-3!D(in Hearts)-4!S
OliverC: Asking Bids are slam investigation tools, primarily
OliverC: Over Intermediate Openings they occur only in very tightly-defined circumstances
ReginaldF: Nice
dae: ty
OliverC: Any questions here?
dae: 3 d would be relay to H then?
OliverC: one minute
OliverC: You will see next week that in this system we almost always show shortage by bidding the suit BELOW the shortage. This doesn;t matter too much at the moment, but it becauses ...
OliverC: crucially important when we start using Asking Bids
dae: ok   
OliverC: You'll just have to take that on trust for now, but you will find that the system is VERY consistent about that
DRAJCM->Club: WD NICE HAND NO ?
OliverC: East needs to think "constructive" here
Campus61: lost I'm
->Campus61: how so?
Campus61: I don't have the answer I'm sure
OliverC: ok lead and claim 11 please
OliverC: ok, you got there in the end, but it was a slightly "unPrecision-like" auction
OliverC: 1!H-1!S is fine
Campus61->Club: I was sure that it was unPrecision
j915->Club: me too
OliverC: Now I would tend to rebid 2!D or 2!S with the East hand (2!D to show where my values are or 2!S because of my 3-card support and ruffing value in Clubs
Campus61: I thought about bidding !d
OliverC: You will find that we tend to be fairly relaxed about sometimes playing in 4-3 fits, especially in a Major
vinny3147: speak for your self   LOL
OliverC: Over 1!H-1!S-2!S I would expect West to make a long-suit trial bid in Diamonds (3!D) and now East goes to game in Spades
OliverC: We'll be covering trial bids properly in a couple of weeks, but that is no different from SA in this instance
OliverC: so 1!H-1!S-2!S-3!D-4!S is one good sequence here
thelz000->Club: no
OliverC: Alternative, if East rebids 2!D I would expect West to bid 3!S, and not East bids 3!S as a forward-going move showing 3-card support and West goes to game
OliverC: sorry, that came out wrong
OliverC: Alternative, if East rebids 2!D I would expect West to bid 3!D, and now East bids 3!S as a forward-going move showing 3-card support and West goes to game
OliverC: so 1!H-1!S-2!D-3!D-3!S-4!S
OliverC: The problems with the auction you had was this:
OliverC: 1NT would tend to show some kind of Club holding
OliverC: now a small doubleton
OliverC: not
OliverC: Over 1NT, 2!S is weak with long Spades (ie: "drop dead")
OliverC: it's not really encouraging or invitational
Campus61: so I shoulda bid 2!d
OliverC: better in my view
OliverC: Any questions?
Campus61: almost did chicken here
OliverC: lol
OliverC: np
trafalgar2: E bids 2!d?
OliverC: try this one
Campus61: I do beleive I will pass :)
->Campus61: lol
->JohnnyHiLo: Right: strong enough here that you can bid your suits in the natural order
OliverC: A reverse by Responder is 100% Game-Forcing (in almost any system) and Precision is no different
dae: reverse?
OliverC: ie: bidding the Diamonds first and then bidding the Spades second
dae: y
OliverC: so lower-ranking suit then a higher-ranking suit
OliverC: Right on track thus far
OliverC: ok, stop there
dae: wrong?
->dae: no, 4!D is fine
OliverC: What are you intending with 4!C here, Johnny?
JohnnyHiLo: asking for a diamond control?
OliverC: ok, it would tend to be a 4th-suit force in this sequence
OliverC: so asking for a further description from partner
dae: went past NT
OliverC: yes, so definitely interested in a slam here
dae: so slam  going
OliverC: fine
OliverC: as long as we agree that 4!D from dae is just confirming good Diamond support rather than denying anything
JohnnyHiLo: continue?
dae: y
OliverC: yes, carry on
JohnnyHiLo: am i asking or telling about hearts at this point
dae: i don't know
OliverC: well Over 4!C I would bid 4!D, but 4!H is a cue-bid showing a !H control
OliverC: so 5!D is wimping out
JohnnyHiLo: thats what i intended
OliverC: 5!D is saying "Ok I wasn;t really interested in a slam after all"
JohnnyHiLo: u want to undo dae?
OliverC: if you that needs to undo, Johnny
OliverC: it's
dae: "I"  wasn't sounds like my pd is
->JohnnyHiLo: bid 4!S
OliverC: 4!H is a cue-bid for Diamonds
OliverC: NO No NO
OliverC: bid 4!S
dae: what is a cuebid for D? mean?
dae: is this ok now so far?
OliverC: You're in the middle of a cue-bidding seuqnce here guys
OliverC: Johnny, bid 4!S to show the A!S
dae: why  reject uyndo?
j915: ok by me
OliverC: because the bidding is FINE up to this point
JohnnyHiLo: i am asking for an undo and it is rejected
OliverC: Yes, because you don;t NEED to undo
JohnnyHiLo: it is dae's bid
dae: ?
dae: i am lost
OliverC: I'm not surprised
OliverC: Why are we jumping to 5!C over 3NT now?
dae: not jump
OliverC: At the moment the bidding shown (to me anyway) is 1!H-2!D-3!D-3!S-3NT-5!C
dae: I can't pass?
dae: he  bid  4 H
OliverC: start this again
dae: wouldn't let him undo 4 h
OliverC: The bidding display sometimes gets screwed up at teaching table when undos are used
cdt: yes u r not seeing what we are seeing :)
OliverC: I will be now
OliverC: This has happened before :)
cdt: I know 
OliverC: I've told Fred about it but there's nothing they can do at present
dae: that   confuses me   4 c
trafalgar2: is 4!c a precision bid ?
OliverC: well it's a 4th-suit force
OliverC: 4!H is definitely a cue-bid for Diamonds, which is fine
dae: didn' know it was cue for D
dae: for sure
OliverC: North could bid 4!D over 3NT which is definitely slam-invitational in Diamonds
nzakosek: i thought 4th suit was used to force an auction to game...
OliverC: 4!C might be inter[reted as a cue-bid for Diamonds is the danger
trafalgar2: yes
JohnnyHiLo: if i answer her about my diamond controls do queens count? is it a stepped response?
OliverC: the bidding got screwed up again. I have 4!H by South and then 4!H by West
dae: YOU bid th e D  why ask ME??
OliverC: This is a cue-bidding sequence, NOT Asking Bids
trafalgar2: but N has no !c control
JohnnyHiLo: ok so how do u want to do it lets start again
OliverC: It takes me 2½ months at least to teach you the basics of Asking Bids, and then 6 months for you to get it straight in your head. I can't start you off in 5 minutes
dae: lol
OliverC: no undos now
dae: sorry about this!
OliverC: np
cdt: Why is it only screwed up for you we see it the right way lol
OliverC: it's important to get this sort of sequence straight in your head
dae: j?
OliverC: this sequence, like the last, is all about bidding constructively
OliverC: j915?
JohnnyHiLo: his eyes are crossing
dae: he went to sleep?
OliverC: must have
DRAJCM->Club: SOMETIMES IS NECESSARY
OliverC: someone else to sit and pass, please?
dae: ty
OliverC: thanks reg
JohnnyHiLo: now here i can show reverse even after an agree trump suit? 
dae: 3  s  again?
OliverC: Yes
OliverC: Now 3NT by South
ReginaldF: Can be an advanced cue bid
OliverC: Now I prefer 4!D (forcing) by North
OliverC: because 4!C might be inter[reted as a cue-bid
JohnnyHiLo: 4nt=?
dae: rkc
OliverC: Why do you guys prefer to leap straight to RKCB when cue-bidding tells you so much more
OliverC: no, no undos
OliverC: it is the undos that screws everything up
Campus61: I think you have to undo it
dae: so i shd say 4h
OliverC: yes
gimit: No undos or the bidding will get screwed up, I think
OliverC: try it one more time
JohnnyHiLo: want to start over?
ReginaldF: 5!s 2 a and Q!s
OliverC: now 4!S cue
ReginaldF: Q!D
dae: aha
OliverC: NOW you can bid 4NT RKCB if you like
OliverC: so 1 Ace missing  -  easy decision
OliverC: ok, that's fine
OliverC: wd
dae: like pulling teeth
dae: or worse
OliverC: if you're not used to cue-bidding it can take a while to get your head around it
JohnnyHiLo: the first 4d initiated the sequence?
dae->Club: y
dae: up the line
OliverC: ok, so a natural constructive auction here. it wouldn't be any different (potentially) playing 2/1 or SA
OliverC: the 2!S bid forcing to 2NT, the 3!S bid makes it all GF
gimit: Can you tell how many points N has (min)from his 2 diam bid?
OliverC: and the 4!D bid confirms slam interest
OliverC: 16+
dae: opening cunt for sure
dae: count
JohnnyHiLo: so im worried about 1st round control of hearts we didnt mess with clubs because 4nt settled that
OliverC: excuse me?
dae: I cued H ace
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OliverC: we'll have no bad language in my classes ROFLMAO
dae: sorry      poor typist
OliverC: yes, 4!S cues !S Ace and now 4NT wraps it up
->dae: not a problem
OliverC: Any more questions?
dae: n   TY
ReginaldF: No thx
OliverC: ok, last one then we'll see if anyone else wants to have a go
dae: just red  face!!!!!!!
JohnnyHiLo: but how do i know the 4d is asking in hearts and not a cue bid sequence?
->dae: I would die if I made that typo LOL
ReginaldF: WE have the cards P
OliverC: 4!D is NOT Asking in Hearts
dae: it was   ace showing cue bid
JohnnyHiLo: what is it
JohnnyHiLo: ok
OliverC: 4!D is confirming Diamonds as trumps, showing you want to go to a slam, and ASKING partner to cue-bid
JohnnyHiLo: ok
OliverC: It is that because you're in a GF sequence and would jump to 5!D with no slam interest rather than bidding 4!D
Campus61: providing they have extras to continue
dae: 3 h?
doktrin (Lobby): hi, experts +++ & stars team match?
OliverC: ok, I mentioned we bid the suit BELOW a shortage
JohnnyHiLo: and have bypassed clubs because it didnt have a control
OliverC: yes
Campus61: I have 5/4 in M time to raise cane :0
Campus61: whoop those are diamonds 
OliverC: South here would probably splinter on this hand
JohnnyHiLo: slick and cool too!:)
OliverC: in this system you would splinter in Diamonds by bidding 4!C
OliverC: 2NT doesn;t mean what you want it to mean, dae
dae: was thikin  mini splinter    but wrong
OliverC: 4!C here explicitly agrees Hearts as trumps, shows a DIAMOND shortage
doktrin (Lobby): hi, experts +++ & stars team match?
OliverC: and is showing interest in a slam
->doktrin: sry, teaching
OliverC: So South has shown a very good hand with good controls
JohnnyHiLo: so 4h
OliverC: no
dae: cue
dae: ?
OliverC: you have the perfect hand for this, Johnny
OliverC: no wasted values in Diamonds
OliverC: assisting controls in the black suits
OliverC: so bid 4!S
OliverC: showing the Spade control
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OliverC: and DENYING the Diamond control
OliverC: South can choose now
OliverC: either a cue of 5!C or RKCB
OliverC: Now 5!H from North
OliverC: who has done enough for now
OliverC: Now South bids 5!S
JohnnyHiLo: i dont cue the kc?
OliverC: ie: showing the Spade control. This is effectively a Grams Slam force
OliverC: Grand
JohnnyHiLo: because it would take us up 1 level
JohnnyHiLo: the club cue
OliverC: Since we're committed to 6!H anyway it's showing interest in 7!H is North has 2 of the top 3 honours in Hearts
OliverC: So North should be bidding 7!H now
OliverC: Bridge is such as easy game LOL
cdt: lol 
JohnnyHiLo: but we didnt cue the king of clubs did we?
OliverC: Well the 5!S cue is enough, I think
OliverC: ok, wd
dae: I cued   K so you know no loser
DRAJCM->Club: LIKE?
dae->Club: Ace ,I mean
OliverC: So the lesson from this is that splinters are in the suit below
OliverC: So if North bid 3!S over 1!H this would be showing a CLUB shortage, and 4!D over 1!H would be showing a SPADE shortage
Campus61: theses are neat hands I never see them in touramnets
OliverC: You will see this kind of logic repeated throughout this system
dae: hmmmmm
OliverC: If playing SA or 2/1 it doesn't matter and you get no advantage from bidding the suit below, but it does make a difference once you have asking bids available
Campus61: why rebid clubs?
OliverC: This is because a bid in partner's KNOWN short suit is always Beta, the general control-asking bid, 
dae: showed ACE  first was      showind D  shortness
Campus61: first it was a splinter in D then control
OliverC: Yes
OliverC: Since North has denied a control in Diamonds (with 4!S), they pretty much Have to have the K!C anyway
dae: 4 c was D               then  5c showed ace
OliverC: otherwise they would probably not cue-bid anything immediately
OliverC: Any questions?
JohnnyHiLo: but how does she know about second round control of clubs?
dae: I DON"T       YOU do
OliverC: From South's viewpoint it doesn't really matter
JohnnyHiLo: but i go to 5h. is that encouraging?
OliverC: If North has the K!S (4!S) then any losing Clubs likely to be going away on the Spades
OliverC: 5!H here just showed nothing more to show at the moment. It's simply confirming no control in Diamonds
JohnnyHiLo: okey dokey
OliverC: but this is music to south's ears, since any values North has in Diamonds are completely wasted anyway
OliverC: Any others wanting to sit and play?
OliverC: Thanks you 4, well done
dae: great lesson
JohnnyHiLo: thank you. excellent class.
ReginaldF: I can pass all night :-)
Campus61: tks Oliver
OliverC: more to sit please? I have some more hands to practice if anyone wants
OliverC: or we can stop there
JohnnyHiLo: id like to go on
OliverC: ok
OliverC: 1 more?
trafalgar2: hi
t1hammond: hi all
dae: hi
OliverC: this is an awkward bid for East
OliverC: brb
Campus61: how do splinter clubs ?
->Campus61: 4!D here
dae: splinter   in D?
OliverC: ok, Actually 4!C is a splinter (for Spades) in Diamonds
OliverC: must like the last hand
OliverC: but by Opener
dae: ok
OliverC: so this is fine
Campus61: clear as mud :(
OliverC: West really not interested and so signs off
JohnnyHiLo: can the hands be shown? I cant see them
dae: who claims
OliverC: East a little weak for a splinter here, but has huge playing strength, so this sequence is fine
dae: i can't
OliverC: Someone needs to lead first
OliverC: can't claim before the lead
dee_dee_20: lead first and claim
OliverC: wd, that was perfectly bid
dae->Club: strange hand!
JohnnyHiLo: bad lead from the bidding
OliverC: West really not interested. Only a 10-count and K!D going to be wasted
OliverC: It's as good as anything else, Johnny
trafalgar2: how to show splinter in !c in that sequence pls?
dae: S
OliverC: 4!D would show a Club shortage
OliverC: Since Any splinter East makes is agreeing Spades and they cannot have a Heart shortage
dae: ok- really takes   concentration
OliverC: it certainly does
OliverC: you wait till you get to Asking Bids LOL
OliverC: or Lebensohl in competitive sequences
dee_dee_20: not the naughty word (leb)  please:)
cdt: Hey are u trying to scare us away lol
OliverC: lol
ReginaldF: R we required to think then?
OliverC: where is your sense of adventure. Ask any of my lot. This system is HUGE fun to play
dee_dee_20: the best!!!!!!!!!!!
OliverC: try this one
->t1hammond: 2!C?
dae: not sure if this is used  in precision?
JohnnyHiLo: michaels?
dae: no
->dae: I would just bid 4!S
t1hammond: weak for sure
dae: cuebid      limit raise or better
->t1hammond: on 3-card Clubs?>
trafalgar2: limit raise in !s
JohnnyHiLo: DIRTY POOL
ReginaldF: No 3 1/2 !S
t1hammond: trying to leave bidding room
ReginaldF: LOL
dee_dee_20->Kibitzers: at the risk of ......what is 2!c by S?
OliverC: A very good question
OliverC: I would love to know what 2!C is showing
JohnnyHiLo: aaaaaaaah!!!!
dae: shd be opening hand and long C?
t1hammond: I think a minumum hand
ReginaldF: To confuse pard and avoid that horrid red suit
dae: CLAIM
OliverC: oh, you mean the 10-card Heart fit that N/S have ignored in favour of an 8-card Club fit? ROFLMAO
t1hammond: and it does leave bidding room
OliverC: ok, silly bidding like that is not going to teach anyone anything :)
OliverC: let's rebid sensibly
JohnnyHiLo: i had a guy overcall a 3 card suit the other day and when he laid down dummy we had a 6 card fit
dae: ?
Campus61: I have a file file on Leb you would love to see lol
OliverC: overcalling on a 3-card suit is just not sensible bridge at ANY vulnerability
t1hammond: show 12 -14 with no suit agreement
Campus61: I feel so bad it didn't work out
->Campus61: how do you mean?
dae: ??
Campus61: Scanner didn't scan properly it scrambled fine thou
ReginaldF->Kibitzers: 2!h by N?
->dae: the problem with 1NT here is that you've allowed N/S into the auction
dae: ok
dae: 4 s right away?
OliverC: ok, 1NT here was definitely wrong
OliverC: This is the perfect hand for a pre-emptive 3!S
dae->Club: to me    ,preemptive means weak and I think I am fairly storong?
OliverC: when we get to fit-showing jump-shifts next week you will see it's actually perfect for a fit-showing jump-shift of 3!D over 1!S
dae: 11 support?
trafalgar2: mini-splinter?
OliverC: This would show about 8-9 points, a Diamond suit and Spade support
dae: ok
OliverC: You could even use a mini-splinter in Hearts (1!S-2NT-3!C(?)-3!D( in !H) but Now East would likely sign off in 3!S
OliverC: luck of the draw
OliverC: I quite like 1!S-4!S here as it completely shuts North out of the bidding
OliverC: as you can see, loads of options
OliverC: depending on your style, the vulnerability etc
OliverC: Any ???
dae: but  2 nt not balanced?
OliverC: 2NT over 1!S shows an undisclosed mini-splinter
dae: oH
JohnnyHiLo: should i go any higher than 5h
OliverC: so 8-9 points, good !S support and a shortage somewhere
OliverC: well it's cheap, for sure, but 5!S probably not making
JohnnyHiLo: 5h making
OliverC: Declarer has to play very well to make 5!S
dae: dn 1
OliverC: Ruff !H, Cash exactly 1 round of Spades and then play on Diamonds
dae:   if no ruff    in S
dae: D i mean
OliverC: Ruffs in Spades when Spades are trumps is a little difficult. If N/S find the Diamond ruff then no play for 5!S
dae: y
OliverC: 1NT here shows 16-18 points :)
JohnnyHiLo: sorry thought we played weak in precision
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dae: undo?
OliverC: not as an overcall
OliverC: best
OliverC: North has a clear pass here
dae: drop dead?
OliverC: too right
OliverC: :)
OliverC: ok, so this is the long weak suit kind of hand
OliverC: East is showing a fundamentally weak hand with no fit for Clubs or Hearts and a long 6+ Diamond suit
OliverC: the sort of hand where their hand is going to be completely wasted unless the hand is played in Diamonds
OliverC: This kind of sequence can occur in SA and 2/1 as well as Precision
OliverC: (particular in 2/1, which also has a forcing NT)
Campus61->Club: could she have bid 3diamons with 7
OliverC: This kind of sequence is the one that changes in character when we start using Asking Bids
OliverC: no, this is an escape sequence, not invitationa;
OliverC: If she had a stronger hand she could bid 1!H-2!D-3!C-3!D, which is always a fairly limited sequence
OliverC: and if stronger still should would be bidding something stronger (like 3!S or 3NT) over 3!C
OliverC: 10 tricks the limit here
OliverC: 9 more likely
OliverC: Any ????
Campus61: nty
dae: what is your time there?
->dae: just gone 11pm
dae: ok
OliverC: As you can see, quiote a lot of these sequences are little different than you would bid playing SA or 2/1
patsy_24->Club: usually
OliverC: ok, stop there
OliverC: Is 3!H showing or Asking?
dae: or FSF?
OliverC: STOP THERE
t1hammond: ok
OliverC: 3!H here is a 4th-suit force (in almost any system)
dae: y
kenny007->Club: ty
OliverC: so it's ASKING, not showing
OliverC: So either SOUTH should be bidding 3NT (since North cannot have 4-card Hearts here) or North should be bidding 4!D over 3!H
t1hammond: yes
JohnnyHiLo: do we want to start over again?
OliverC: no, this is fine
OliverC: you can make 6!D here, but in the absence of a Q!C lead you need to get the Clubs right :)
dae: y was bad lead
OliverC: ok, this sequence was fine
OliverC: Over 2!D North RIGHT to make a high reverse into 3!C because of his fit for Diamonds
JohnnyHiLo: and the extra pts indicate by 2/1
OliverC: Swap North's red suits around (singleton Diamond and Qxx in Hearts) and I would perhaps bid 2NT over 2!D
OliverC: rather than erversing into 3!C
OliverC: ok?
JohnnyHiLo: yes
dae: y
OliverC: Actually I quite like 1!S-2!D-3!C-3!H-4!D-4!H(cue)-4!S(cue)-4NT(Rolling)-5!C(cue)-6!D
OliverC: but the sequence you had was a practical one
dae: waht is rolling?
dee_dee_20: lol
t1hammond: I make this mistake way to often when have a nt fit 
OliverC: Rolling is this: In our Precision system 4NT is NEVER RKCB once we start using Asking Bids
dae: just continue  cues?
OliverC: In the middle of a cue-bidding sequence it is a "rolling" bid, usually denying a Club control
OliverC: and inviting partner to show a Club control if they have one
dae: ok    ty
OliverC: Otherwise 4NT can be natural (not here) or a general slam try inviting partner to cue-bid, or quantitative
OliverC: NEVER RKCB :)
dae: ok
OliverC: Anyone desperate to jump in? I have 4 more hands if people want, or I can go cook dinner :)
OliverC: since it's now 11-30pm here, I would favour the latter, to be honest :)
JohnnyHiLo: whatever seems comfortable for u at this point
dae: y   fine
dae: mind boggled
OliverC: well 3½ hours for a lesson is verging on OTT
trafalgar2: better to have dinner getting very late
cdt: better cook dinner it will be time for breakfast soon lol
dae: Thanks!1
OliverC: and after a while you stop taking everything in anyway
OliverC: ok, well done everyone. more next week: mini-splinters and fit-showing jump-shifts
ReginaldF->Club: Excellent lesson thanks v much night all
nzakosek->Kibitzers: except the food
OliverC: Night all
JohnnyHiLo: right. then we owe u a very big thank you:)
cdt: Thanks Oliver wonderful lesson :)
OliverC: seeya